Thursday, March 29, 2007

Evolution vs. Creationism

Okay, I admit it... this is a recent bug I have had. Ever since starting to read Greg Laden's Blog I have become accutely aware of the dividing line between folks who believe in creationism and those who believe in evolution.

My religious views can be found rather easily within the blatherings of my blog, but just in case it isn't as apparent as I might think... I don't like religion. But I have great faith. I have little faith in translations scribed by humans, let's face it, most if not all humans have agendas no matter how pure or free of human urges they (or others) perceive themselves to be.

I have asked this question of others, infact, I just shot off an inquiry to the folks at - Keep in mind I am not trying to be combative, I truly believe there is peace to be found here.

Here is the note I sent to (and you, should you deem it worthy of responding too):

I am very curious as to the reasons that the process of evolution can not be used as a means of explaining the logistics of "how" God's creations came to be.

In an attempt to imagine what a measure of a day would be in an infinite lifespan, why can't evolution be a mile-stone mapping of the process of creation?

If we accepted evolution and archealogical finds as snapshots of God's process of creation, would we think any less of God's immense powers?

It seems to me that evolution has the capacity to be an elegant answer as opposed to such a clearly alienating concept.


Cheryl said...
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JaneDoughnut said...

I think the reason the hard-line religious right can't accept evolution is not so much because evolution itself is offensive, but because the very act of questioning the Bible's literal truth is offensive. And if we allow people to see the mountains of evidence supporting evolution, they may realize that there are so many other things to question.

In the long run, it will bite the religious establishment in the ass. Once you're caught lying to people, they'll expect you to lie again. Me, I think the church is the LAST place one should look for scientific truths.

Cheryl said...
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mike macgirvin said...

Jane said it already. The world was created entirely in seven days, period. Because that's what the Bible says. If you allow for any other interpretation of those words, then you could start to question all the other words. And pretty soon the whole 'book of undeniable truth' thing collapses. Jesus might not be God's son, but maybe a second cousin. Mary might have kissed a few boys in her day. Jesus himself might have kissed a couple of girls - which would then mean that priests didn't have to kiss little boys. What if - well what if heaven didn't actually exist? See what a mess this creates? If you insist that it was in fact just 168 hours for the entire creation, then everything stays nice and neat and orderly.

Cheryl said...
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Cheryl said...
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mike macgirvin said...

Cheryl - the tradition that priests cannot marry is based on the fact that Jesus didn't marry. And this has created a crisis most recently in the Roman Catholic church as we've found what these sexually deprived priests have been doing to satisfy their natural 'urges'. If they were allowed to live normal human existences (my dad is an Anglican minister, that is allowed to marry); a lot of this stuff probably would've never happened.

Cheryl said...
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Michael-Ann said...

Cheryl I've never heard of Westboro... to date though my experiences with the baptist religion have been ones filled with unwarranted judgment, bias, and fear... I can only imagine what Westboro is all about.

Jane, I think your on to it... religious folks view deviation as a crack in the damn waiting to give way to all sorts if immoral stuff. What is so damn frustrating is that over time literal translation has been modified... isn't time to make another jump in that direction... ha! yet another leap of faith?

Deep in my heart I wish and hope for a day that religion becomes like smoking cigarettes... a shameful archeaic thing shunned to be done away from the collective public eye and nose.

I'm thinking that if the USA was to truly separate church and state than churches would be responsible for the same taxes every other business has to pay.

I see Mike's point... One cannot deny the biological influences dictating the need to procreate... What Mike is talking about is the same sort of thing I rant about... deny human sexuality and the need to procreate by cloaking it all in some victorian principle and you are bound to produce deviates in the form of a catholic priest or Albert Fish - it doesn't matter... People aren't allowed to casually express sexual thoughts and ultimately wind up fixating on some weird shit thinking IT is the end all be all solution to their unsatisfied biological drive.

But then again, I think I am deviating... woo hoo!

Cheryl said...
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Michael-Ann said...

For some that path isn't one they choose for themselves, they are born into it and honed from day one to walk the path... they are raised in denial from the moment of conception.

How you perceive it and how it is for those who live it is all a matter of relativity.

I suppose it is a grey thing to me.

You should understand the nature of relativity in perception! I know you and I have both been through things that others would deem unacceptable...but somehow we lived to accept them, hell, not only accept them, but wear them as a badge of courage so to speak.

Cheryl said...
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mike macgirvin said...

I was abused by a catholic priest myself, so I apologize that I have some rather strong opinions on the subject. I don't fault the person - even though nobody put a gun to his head. It's a sickness induced by the culture he inhabits. Perverts don't flock to the priesthood, rather the church tends to create them.

But we've drifted from the original post quite a bit. I'll shut up now.

Richard said...

If there is no god, then any god would surely be as prone to error as the humans who created it. And regardless of whether there is, or not a god, or gods, it is still an undeniable fact -- humans created their religions.

It's might be impossible to undo the brainwashing most of us have been subject to because the first thing we are engrained with as a child is . . this is the word of god, therefore, infallible.

Here's the problem -- I reason.

If there is a god, then I am a perfect being, because god would not create an imperfect thing.

Reason however, is in stark contrast with these religions which instill in us a thought process "we all fall short of the glory of god", i.e., your a sinner, etc.

This "unworthy" thought process lacks any logic other than one conclusion -- undermine individuals on a psychological basis, rendering them into a state to be controlled.

So at one time I mulled over the god years, but the more I looked at all religions, I came back to the bible seeing it as a story . . once upon a time garbly gook. And god years are just another ploy to justify this nonsense which is no different from believing Leda and the Swan, Ra, etc. And regardless of whether people think the Judeo/Christian/Islamic (JCI) god is about love or virture, the facts state otherwise. JCI,, is a form government with a classification : tyranny.

For most of my life, people have told me I was the devil -- so one day, I realized they were probably right, and I forgot a lot because I'm co-inhabiting a human form. So here's what I've remembered so far . . god struck the first blow in a pre-emptive strike because I championed humanity, wanting it to take responsibility for its future.

So here's my first declaration as the devil, because I must now oppose god as the perfect being, and I say to all humans, "Do not live in fear."

Mitch! said...

Wow. Maybe I can make your grey hairs grayer!

Judaism, it is said there are 600,000 interpretations of the Torah (the old testement). One for each of the people Moses delivered the Torah to. And of course just as many commentaries for each of those.

If you read as it is written, you have a lot nice stories about stuff that happened a long time ago. If you look at each word, and letter however, whole new meanings appear because God is all knowing etc.

So a day to God is not a day to us, but perhaps several hundred thousand years. And if you add that up, the Torah says it took God the same number of years to create the heavens and the earth as scientists say it took today. What the? Yep.

So not only is evolution part of creation, we are still part of that process according to the Torah. Reincarnation is part of that process as we are all here to create the perfect universe. (my interpretation of someone elses, right?) We are still evolving and it is taught that our goal is to make the universe perfect and ourselves. Of course perfection is unattainable isn't it? Where would we be when we get there? That's another story. Bottom line? Be good. Do good. Help bring the universe to the light...raise the holy spark!

From my experiences as a Jew, life is all about learning, giving and expanding your mind. Stories upon stories...A beggar on the street is there to give you the opportunity to be generous- stuff like that.

Zealots- Was that your original comment Mikie? Ignore them. It's like a committee isn't it? Organized religion.
I've never looked upon Judaism as organized like that. You can certainly find zealots among Jews too. Ignorance
is a popular choice for the unchallenged. I say if we all do our part to make the world better then we're on the right track.

Mitch! said...

BACK TO THE 600,000 interpretations... maybe that's why we're always yelling over each other? Ya think? HeHe......

Carolyn said...

I went to the dictionary and found the following -- Religion VS Faith

1. people's beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life
2. a particular institutionalized or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine
3. a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by
4. an object, practice, cause, or activity that somebody is completely devoted to or obsessed by
5. life as a monk or a nun, especially in the Roman Catholic Church

1. belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof
2. a system of religious belief, or the group of people who adhere to it
3. belief in and devotion to God
4. a strongly held set of beliefs or principles
5. allegiance or loyalty to somebody or something

I go with Faith. It is more personaly enlightening and adheres to nobody's rules except for those that are self-imposed, because of ideas and conversation and maybe literature that has given me insight . ("Rules" being a strong word, I prefer "Beliefs") Religion is too rigid a word, and too lawful...I do beleive in God and I am too blessed to be rigid and my faith keeps it all real and my faith can adjust my attitude in a helps me to exhale more often than if I didn't have it....

My coffee is wearing off and I have a project to complete...gotta go. Have a blessed day! C

Carolyn said...

p.s. I went to a Christian/Inspirational concert last fall and when I returned to the neighborhood, someone immediately said.."were there a bunch of Jesus freaks there?" I was offended only because it was so easy for this person catergorize a gathering. I didn't see any 'Jesus freaks" just nice people all sharing one thing: Faith. Truly, without faith, what ARE we here for? It keeps me grounded and my soap box...thanks for the excercise Mikie...I'm feeling a little cerebral and still thinking about Faith vs Religion or trying to literalize my beliefs. I thought is was more basic than my thoughts are now embellishing on in my brain --

Michael-Ann said...

Hmmm... lots to think about. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Carolyn, clearly faith is the way to go... I like the first definition best.

I like how faith is a constant companion, a friend, a comfort.

Mitch, I am glad that I get to learn about Judaism from you.

Mr. Richard... Do not live in fear! I would like to make that my credo.

JaneDoughnut said...

"a crack in the damn"

I think your Freudian slip is showing. ;)

Richard said...

In a conversation on a plane with a woman doing bible homework, I asked her (after professing my distain for the tyranny of god) . . if she were to see a painting of the bible, more specifically, were I to paint one, which one?

I wish there existed words to paint a rapture that came over her, because she said the word "nurturing", describing Creation. And embraced herself enough to express it, through half-closed eyes, as she imagined the holy spirit embracing the earth, literally painting the picture for me with her pose.

Creation, as she described it, was an act of love.

I was totally disarmed.

It's unfortunate people like her aren't the ones preaching religion and politics, because if people could believe in things like that, we would all have a lot less to argue about.

Abbi said...

The christian perspective may be more deeply understood by going to:

It has answers to a lot of these questions and issues. True, it comes from a christian point-of-view, but if you really wish to discover truth, perhaps you should consider all aspects.

Michael-Ann said...

Hi Abbi,

Where I have some obvious feelings, make no mistake, I have looked in many places and will continue to do so :)

Thank you for the link and best wishes to you!

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